Interview with Undercover Infiltrators at the March For Our Lives in St. Paul
Without going into all of the supersecret ways that anarchists spot undercover cops in a crowd, these two men were pointed out as infiltrators by reliable sources and then interviewed on camera. The two split up once they realized they were "made" and then one just left the march all together.
Interview conducted at the the March For Our Lives in St. Paul, September 2nd, 2008:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/09/03/18532509.php
The two would not identify themselves as police nor name their employeeing agency. Another infiltrator who was confronted by activists, and not interviewed on camera, did admit he was a cop, but laughably he claimed he was not "undercover" but simply "plain clothes" — his purpose there being to keep the marchers safe (from themselves presumably). At least a half dozen "plain clothes" officers were spotted in the march, which was already lined with riot cops wearing gas masks for nearly the entire route.
March for Our Lives
Poor People's Economic Human Rights Campaign
More S1 coverage at indybay.org/conventions2008.
Comments
http://users.aol.com/donh523/
http://users.aol.com/donh523/navapage/leechlk.htm
to pose as a native while bald and light skinned blonde, one would have to be an absolute idiot, wellpaid, or both... or maybe actually just is what he is? My son is really light skin native with short hair.
i was not there.
his buddy hi- tailed it FaST, which means cop. maybe tell the guys at leech lake.
he did have new shoes, though he could have been a blonde metis (white and native) with some comfy new shoes ... I think we should be careful...true, cops usually stick out like ugly sore thumbs, i'd be laughing my @ss off if he hadn't said leech lake.
ya wanna check out his buddy? I only saw your video. Could he be a native in the military (bald) that is the weirdest damn thing, if cops start posing as natives... AGAIN
Well, the concerns of you
Well, the concerns of you and others are very valid. It is bad for general progress if a legitimate participant who falls outside of the average protester body-type, or who happens to be an older male, or a large-bodied younger male with a moustache, is socially rejected. This type of suspicion can turn a protest into an in-group. Remember that the FBI infiltrator 'Anna' who met Eric McDavid at the 2004 RNC and sent him to jail for 19 years for conspiracy (he never committed a crime, and she spent months cajoling him into making practice backyard bombs), was an 18 year old community college student who hitchhiked with her target. http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/05/22/18500855.php
However, that said, what Dave is doing here is a brilliant way of dealing with new people who no one recognizes, and are slightly odd in appearance. He's going right up to them and introducing himself as a journalist, and letting them talk. It's clear the first guy doesn't know what to say, and also isn't able to correct them or argue when he is finally accused. The second guy is able to spout out an employer name (tribes hire white people, including police. and yes, I have red-headed friends who are tribal members with 1/4 ancestry), but he clearly isn't able to respond to this dialog. If someone were falsely accusing me as a 30 yr old, who isn't in the center of their 23 yr old demographic, or wasn't wearing black, I would object and start spouting my connections etc.
Conspiracy
Is a crime the last time I checked. She totally talked him into making those bombs though. It's her fault he made those bombs. It hadn't ever crossed his mind until he met her. She should be in jail for him making bombs.
conspiracy
Responding to this comment: I actually attended the last day of the McDavid trial and was able to see the hidden video from the FBI rigged cabin she had him stay at. She had actually gone to the east coast to drive one of them to California, and had paid the other ones to buy plane tickets or quit their jobs to hang out at this cabin, where she had bomb recipes she had printed out.
In the clips the attorneys showed, the informant was pushing extremely hard. She was putting on this show that she was the most politically passionate person, and was calling them lazy and 'all talk and no action'. She was pacing around waving her arms saying she was really frustrated with their lack of direction, and demanded that they hold a house meeting where they would state their goals by one year. She started by saying she would be satisfied if they took out the power to a city by cutting the electrical lines, then tried to get them to continue going in a circle. The plea bargainer Zack just laid there saying nothing. McDavid actually told her to relax and said they didn't have to accomplish anything within a year, and appeared to just be trying to make her happy by agreeing to practice skills and techniques, like blowing things up in the yard. He had no priors.
Anyhow, the idea is to not just be suspicious of heavyset unarticulate people, but it's also important to encourage diverse groups to participate in political actions.
explosives
oh - I just bumped into this story after posting. Do you see here how they're saying they were monitoring this guy with his molotov cocktail since the CrimetHinc convention? That is exactly the pattern of the Eric McDavid case. They first spotted him at the Iowa CrimetHinc, and the 2004 conventions. Next they apparently are hovering around for months, watching without any interference or influence at all, until they happen to notice that he suddenly got into explosives, and they leap in at the crucial last second.
Also, there is this emphasis on shutting off the power to a building or city that occurred in the McDavid case. Doesn't it imply that they're hovering around lots of people? let's be paranoid.
http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/03/1334659.aspx
explosives
eric and crew never made any explosives. anna was pushing them too, and they got popped outside a store with some ingrediants that likely wouldn't have been able to take out much more than vinegar and baking soda does.
oh my, a big fizzle. where's agent doyle when you need an expert in setting a bomb underneath someone's seat.
older ex liberal Anarchists exist
As an over 40 year old white male Anarchist I'm frequently questioned about ties to the Po Po during actions. Understanding security culture I don't get upset when questioned. I simply try to answer the questions and travel with others that can vouch for me. If I'm traveling alone I know to stay out of other folks action discussions and I diffinitely know not to point a camera towards militant actions others may be taking.
So the point I'm trying to make is; If someone looks out of place by all means question them on it. If they get pissed they may be a cop. You might also find someone that has your back if the shit hits the fans. Stay safe, Hit hard and run.
oh the paranoia, how it kills
Yes, there is much reason to be careful of infiltration, but we must also not allow the fear to make us into cops ourselves. If there is sufficcient proof that one is a cop, point him or her out, by all means, but if it is just a simple notion then realize that you may be dividing the camp and pointing out a potential comrade.
all i am saying here is do not let the fear tear you apart, stay strong stay smart and stay honest to your beliefs. kill the cop inside.
If they identified
If they identified themselves as a cop, they were not undercover, and they certainly won't an infiltrator. Undercover cops don't identify themselves as cops when you ask, despite what some people (dangerously) believe.
What Infiltrators Look Like:
If someone wants to infiltrate without being noticed, he or she will wear clothing, piercings, tattoos, and so forth which make him or her seem a natural part of the group. In the case of young anarchist black bloc types, that means unwashed black clothing, piercings, and tattoos. It also means that they will abide by the social rules of the group.
An infiltrator will do some or all of the following things:
1. Suggest acts in furtherance of a conspiracy - these acts could be misdemeanors, or even non-criminal acts which could be represented to a jury as having criminal intent, such as amateur fireworks production which with criminal intent becomes "backyard bomb making".
2. Repeatedly do #1 until the act occurs - "You guys don't do anything - you're all just talk and no action..."
3. Suggest that acts in furtherance of a conspiracy as in #1 be done in the presence of other witnesses, in a public place where they may be observed and recorded, or both.
4. Provide the instrumentality - the illegal substance, weapon, device or whatever - is required to carry out the acts in futherance of the conspiracy. In the 1960s the infiltrators always were the ones supplying the automatic weapons and the bombs, the sexy evidence which could send people away to prison for long sentences and destroy a group, if not a movement,
Oftentimes these things will be directed at a group which previously had engaged in peaceful political activity in order to neutralize it as a threat to the established System.
The Cops
Made me do it. That's always an effective response. You know what I would do if I were a member of a peaceful activist group and someone started egging me on to make bombs for no reason? I refuse to associate with that person, I refuse to make bombs or explosives (because I'm peaceful), and I out this person so that the rest of my peaceful group can agree to not allow this person back. This is all under the assumption that I'm peaceful, my group is peaceful, and I have the conviction and the heart of a good person. If, on the other hand, myself or other members of my group are truly not opposed to any means of furthering our cause, then I might participate. The cops don't choose people or groups that they think are truly peaceful. They choose fringe groups because there are groups and people in this world that have a certain ideology or agenda. Your post is classic blame those in power for allowing (egging) me to commit a crime. Who's to blame? The one that violates the law (Insert Bush comment here).
um.... that's why the feds
um.... that's why the feds spy on the Quakers, too, right?
And
They infiltrated the quakers? Wow, that must have been tough for the cop to pass his name off as William Penn. Did they talk anyone into making bombs?
As an older anarchist, I'd
As an older anarchist, I'd like to suggest we stop using appearances as a standard framework for judging whether or not someone is or is not a cop or infiltrator. Even though on occasion, the plainclothes cops and agents provocateurs can be discovered by carefully observing haircuts, actions, etc. such as http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html
It is very very unlikely that the feds undercover can be spotted, as others made the point about (may she rot, the rat) Anna.
The point I'd like to make here, though, is that anarchists DO NOT come as cookie cutters-- if we did, then that would completely defeat the purpose of individual choice, self-governance, etc. Yes, many people with anarchist ideals are young, punk, crusty, whatever, but by isolating those who differ in body type, gender, age, etc. we are discouraging others with anarchist views or leanings from every becoming active, and/or are causing older anarchists to feel as though there is no place for them.
...and, you young 'uns will get older, too. Assuming you keep your ideals, what happens then?
Watch for the double bluff
One thing I'd just like to add to the discussion that no one else has mentioned yet: Were those cops really in the demonstration to infiltrate it? Or were they put there to be spotted so you wouldn't notice the other cops who actually did know how to infiltrate it? Don't get lazy, and don't depend on using one tactic to reveal them.
Asking specific questions is always a way to catch an infiltrator. Fabricating an entire life story is a hell of a lot of work. Someone who's telling you the truth can tell you what town they grew up in, what street they lived on, what high school they went to, who that high school's main sports rivals were, etc., etc.. Whatever questions are relevant to the situation, the point is, everyone can remember lots of specific facts about their lives. If someone has trouble remembering simple things like those, there's a reason for it.
On the other hand...
If someone came up to me out of the blue during a march and starting asking those types of questions, I'd probably tell 'em to take a hike.
Your dumb if you think...
The feds are gonna send undercovers out that you can "spot". Just from my experiences on Phish tour in the mid-90's, this is not the case. If so, I would not have ex-"friends" who chose to work with the DEA instead of facing 40+ years in jail. These agents were people that you would have NEVER expected. Yeah you might guess the plainclothes guys, but deep undercover agents will sit around and drop acid with you or anything else you can think of... Just a word of caution and advice from someone who's seen the feds in action.
Some of these informants continue to harass you for a lifetime
I fell in love with a member of an activist organization back in 1991. I didn't know she was an infiltrator until 2002 when she showed up at my office in military uniform (Defense Intelligence Agency) to get me fired from my job. She stalked me online for years, and I didn't know it was her. Follow the link to her story:
http://www.anarkhos.org/autobiographical/thestoryofbridget.html